It's a Broker Thing
It’s a Broker Thing brings you real broker conversations, the kind that happen when you’re talking shop with someone who understands the pace, the pressure and the unexpected moments that come with the job.
Each episode shares stories, insights and practical ideas from people who’ve genuinely lived broking, with honest chat and a few laughs along the way.
This podcast is for general education only and isn’t financial, legal, or tax advice. The guests’ views are their own. Bluestone accepts no liability for errors or how you use this information.
It's a Broker Thing
6. If You're Not Connecting, You're Not Growing - with guest, Ruan Burger
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In broking, it’s your connections that determine how far you’ll go.
In this episode, Ruan dives into his 15+ years of broking experience to share why it’s so important to get the basics right. Anyone can create a sleek website or modern brand in a few prompts, but can you automate a tangible brand promise?
That's why the fundamentals matter. The physical touchpoints, the emotion behind it and the ability to maintain authenticity in everything that you do.
Tune into episode six for real talk, practical tips and a fresh perspective.
Welcome to It's a Broker Thing podcast, brought to you by Bluestone Home Loans. Each episode we'll dive into market updates, practical insights, and real stories for brokers who want to stay ahead, build stronger relationships and grow their business. Let's dive in. Welcome to It's a Broker Thing, brought to you by Bluestone Home Loans. I'm your host, Tony McCrae, and I'm delighted to say that joining me again is uh Ruan Berger, the founder of uh Success and Broker and multi-award-winning uh coach in the industry.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me, sir.
SPEAKER_01This episode, mate, we're going to dive into the common challenges that brokers experience when building a brand and how they can overcome those. So before we dive into that, in the last episode we spoke about the importance of um diary planning and management of all of that. I note that uh you uh reasonably recently launched uh the broker journal.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um as a as a wonderful tool for brokers to to take that um process to the next level. Why don't you share a little bit about that? Because I think it it it it it ties certainly ties into the whole brand theme and how you can overcome some of the challenges in establishing that.
SPEAKER_00Well, when I finished, when I sold out of my business in 2021, um I had to, I became a bit of the Minister of Pickup and Drop-off, and that was very short-lived because I screwed that up. So then I became the Minister of Defense because I couldn't believe I screwed it up, but uh there's a system to it, and I wasn't that good at that system. So between school hours, I found myself just thinking about all the things I've done over the last 14 years as a broker and what was the things that have redefined and almost supported me to do good numbers, to build businesses that is was well uh structured within the industry, but also had a good following and had a good a good brand per se. Um and after putting all those things on paper, I can remember I got to about 82 weeks, and uh my wife being a teacher uh in a in a previous life, I put it to her and said, Can work through this. I would love for you to with your teacher hat on to build this out that it becomes a little bit of um not an education tool, but an enabler, an empowerment, something that someone can work through in time and almost just allow them to hopefully it's you know, you know what you know, you don't know what you don't know, almost guide them, almost pivot them a little bit to go, you know, you'd going this way, there is if you challenge yourself here, if you embrace this, if you do this, this can help. Um, and I can remember saying to her, I've made your job easy. I gave you 82 weeks that you've got to turn into 52, so this shouldn't be too hard. And I can remember her very quickly saying, Well, you've regurgitated 32 weeks, so I still just really have 50. And after we went through this thing and just read back at it, it took me a little bit down memory lane, if you like. And I've gone, none of these things happened by chance, they all happened by for purpose. They they they almost like I clearly I was more clear about why I wanted to do what I do. I was clear about what I got to put in and how I can measure so that if I keep measuring all these things, I must get to a point where I hopefully can manage these things. And so we went and built that. We then got a company, we sold about 350 off them over the last three years and then parked it and got a neuroscience company to come in and support us to build it with behavioral intelligence and make it even more broker-centric. Make it something that it's gonna not, it's not there to challenge the broker, but it is there to enable the broker. It's making them think a little bit outside of square and go, I can't risk rest here on my laurels. I've got to really, really think about what I do and what I want to get from this. And then I gotta think about how do I communicate and control those conversations. How do I get the best out of those conversations? How do I coach my clients to not just become long-term clients but to create more long-term clients for me? And uh yeah, we've just relaunched it and yeah, we've just I think we just saw yesterday, we've just launched it, and the first broker journal yesterday was SALT. So it's quite cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I love the irony of a a broker coach that doesn't read books. Yes, is has written a journal.
SPEAKER_00And again, there is videos in it, so so it isn't just but but it is true. It's um I I don't and again it is weird because I I don't read, but I will say this I've always some of my most lasting relationships, think of you and me, happened because of 13 years ago, the time we spent with each other, and you know, the willingness to always want to learn from each other. So I I think it's about you know, it's almost for me it was about crafting the conversation. So I I can read whatever I want, but if I can't articulate it, then I don't know always if my message was how well would my message be received. So for me, crafting the conversation became what built stronger connections, and that's where I spent time means I can talk underwater.
SPEAKER_01And and the heart of everything we do though is relationships. And you know, I'm you you're the same. I I'm still doing business and and really good business with people that I met 20 years ago, and and and they're long lasting, and uh you can you can have those honest and frank conversations by building that.
SPEAKER_00And I don't think it is as much relationships as we think. I do honestly believe it's more connection than it is a relationship. I think the relationships support the connection, but if you think about it, it's a little bit of a spark. It's about that I say this to brokers all the time. If you think of any person you meet, first they got to like you, second, you've got to trust you. And one of my very a broker that I had in my business told me this early days and said, you know, I think this is what you do well, and he said the like and the trust. And I copied it from there and I thought it was just so on point. And if we're in a business and I'm sending you this long email, which again we can easily do, but does that really, really entice you? Does it really, really empower my client to understand? Can I sell with conviction via that email? Or can I sell conviction via the conversation? So that connection for me is very, very important and it's it's a spark. How do I keep that spark alive?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, so the relationship for me is almost like you know, teen dynamics versus culture. I believe teen dynamics, good teen dynamics come before culture. Culture is merely almost a balloon over the teen dynamics, and the same for me with relationship.
SPEAKER_01I have this general rule that uh if I can't easily read an email on my mobile screen, then it's probably not the meet best medium to get that message across.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree with that. And I think um I've always looked as an email as a protection point, not as a communication point. So for me, it was always the devil's in the detail. The email is there just to protect the conversation. Uh, but the conversation for me, if you can have it, have it. If uh you need to send it, send it via text. Why? Because the call to action is faster. So you almost got to choose your poison if you like.
SPEAKER_01I I I'm old enough to remember when email was introduced um into business, and I always found it uh you know, hilarious that people that sat next to each other in open plan offices would send emails to each other.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00It is it's funny, but again, it's almost like it's uh what you built. Um and today, mind you, a lot of those things happen on teams. It's just more faster gratification, if you like. Um I've always said if you have a problem, stand up and go and ask them.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. You know, walk across the across the floor and and and and don't copy the whole universe into your email.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if you're gonna do it blind copy.
SPEAKER_01All right, we we should probably get back uh on point because um we can see Choo Choo in the in the corner there uh staring us down. So uh um let's get back on to um some of the common challenges or errors, mistakes that brokers make when they when they're trying to build a brand.
SPEAKER_00I think for me, just and just reflecting upon it when I when you asked me that question earlier, I think they almost think that the brand is gonna sell their purpose. They think the brand is gonna sell their their their story. The brand supports your purpose and it supports your story, but it doesn't sell it. Um I've I I think it's like anything. Um if I was to ask someone, you know, early days, if I haven't showed you any of my brand, but I have done something that impressed you, you're gonna remember me. Um just seeing my brand is just subliminal. Um the part I love with brand is brand is almost an acknowledgement, it's not a reason. So if you think, and I think some people think it has to be a reason, they spend a lot of time and money on saying it has to be the perfect brand, but truth be told, it doesn't. It just needs to be something that acknowledges you. So if I look at a brand, is it clean? Is it at the end of the day? Is it simple? I think that's that's for me almost if you think about it, the slogan is more important than the brand. And so I think a lot of people have brand, but they don't have a slogan. Uh I'll give you an example. When I started Home Loans, etc. Um, at the time, I I mean I wasn't a big big business, but I didn't want to look small, but I didn't want to be pretending to be too big either. And I saw somewhere and I read it and um I read it, and uh I I something I read and it was not even it wasn't in Australia, it was somewhere where I saw it and it was I can remember this, but it was in a Qantas magazine, and I saw something, and it was a company, and what they say was small enough to rely on. Uh sorry, uh small and yeah, large enough to rely on, small enough to care. And I read that and I went, wow, I want Homelands, etc., to be that. I want us to be that l large enough to rely on, but small enough to care. So so the Homelands, etc. brand wasn't as important for me as the slogan was. So if you ask me where people go wrong with brand, is that the brand doesn't tell the story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I think the brand should tell the story, and that's sometimes a good slogan.
SPEAKER_01And and and that's really um not leading with the brand, but but leading with um how you're gonna make people feel or or what you're gonna deliver. And then the brand becomes a symbol of of that.
SPEAKER_00Oh, 100%. I mean, when I came to Brisbane, uh I had the name Time Home Loans. And you know, you I I loved the name because I knew how much I can play on the name Time. So from that point of view, I liked it because I can tell good stories and then the brand is just there to support the story. And so before you get yourself, um the brand didn't matter as much, but I also wanted to make sure that it feels a little bit different. So when we did our business cards, we die-cut the tea out. So if you look at the card, you can look through the tea. It was a little thing, but when we gave it the first people's first thing someone does is take the card. Oh, that's cool. And so here we are today, and you can have your contact card on your phone, and I can go, Tony, check your phone. There you go, bang, you now have my contact details. Now, at the time I loved when this all changed and we could do it that way. I still stick to my card. Why? Because every time I give someone a card, the die cut T made someone talk about it. They went, This is cool. And I thought, well, if I just did the click, you would have taken that information and it won't have the same inf effect, the same output. So I think sometimes we we look at these things and we want to become so efficiently ineffective that it's not funny. When the reality of it is we got to make sure we stay very, very effective. Anything that we do, what gets that person to look at it twice? That's a good brand. And whichever way that has to look, I think that's quite cool. I saw one of my clients has just gone, so he's uh full name is Peter, and on his email signature it's Pete. And I said, I like that because he knows what market he wants to talk to. And I love that he's done that because that again is a very smart brand play in respect of what his story is, uh what his name is and what his story is telling. And then just that I'm just you know, I'm not anyone special, this is who I am, call me Pete. You know, so it's um I think this is what brands should be.
SPEAKER_01It's it's about projecting um that I'm approachable and and and you can come up and and and and and I'll provide help.
SPEAKER_00That's it. And more to the point, I mean most brands you can see a name, but I don't know much more than that. So how does the slogan tell me more about why that name? And that's why I think a slogan is almost a highway to heaven. It's almost the what what gets you there. If if I had this name, how does that name, you know, you asked me in one of our sessions, you said why success and then broker, not broken, success. And I said to you, it's about understanding what success means to someone so we know what top of a broker they want to become. So it's almost like again, it's horse, cart, cart, horse. It's just what comes first.
SPEAKER_01And then how how do you separate, because I'm a big believer as well, that um people and and the way your people behave are your brand. Yeah. Um and so you it's slogan, brand, and people, um, they really all go hand in hand, but they do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think you've got to be careful. Yeah, there's the old saying, go hard on the problem and soft on the person till the person is the problem. And I think sometimes we jump the gun too quick with with people. We we can assume certain things when we don't know enough. Uh so for me, brand recognition is be very clear. Uh, any good brand has clarity. It tells a story. It uh you know, whether it's a dress coat, whether it is the team, the team lunch, what whatever it is, what does that look like? What does it stand for? Um, so I had the pleasure of uh being at a function once with Wayne Bennett, and I just laughed when he used the terminology of for him, it's above the line and under the line, and it's not so much a question of why you're not performing, it's a question of where do you think you are? And so as soon as they say that, then it's an easy thing to say, so how do you want to get there? So brand allows us to ask good questions. A good brand allows you to ask good questions, and that's what makes brand quite pivotal.
SPEAKER_01So, someone starting out in in in building a brand, what's a simple first step to to help them better show up in the marketplace each day?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's a and it's a funny thing you just say because man, try and find a mortgage broking name now, and that in its own is uh is a full-time job. Uh I think so, whatever you choose, you've got to be so so for argument's sake, I saw someone the other day um and we spoke about it. Uh you know, having your own name as your brand. You know, that can be very that can be very good. Um, especially if your character code is second to none. That's a good that's a good brand proposition. But what are you building and is that going to affect the next person that starts with you? So you've got to be clear again where it is that you want to go versus where it is that you are. Um so I think you just need to think about these things. And I I use that play on large enough to rely on small enough to care. Do you just want to be, you know, do you want to be a large brand? So how does it read? You know, uh, do you want to be a small brand? What does it stand for? So I think your brand has to tell a story. Um if someone is to start, I think the reality of it is they got to make sure that that brand presents them and they represent the brand. I think that's for me is very, very important. So think about showing up somewhere. Um, you know, and again I say this dress coat, you know, do you have if you don't wear a suit for argument's sake and you just wear a shirt, does the shirt have your brand on it? Is it that convenient that I don't have to tell you what I do? You can figure out what I do. That's good branding. You know, where I didn't even have to say anything, but you know now what I'm doing. I mean it's like a uh a broker going to an open home and just standing there and having his shirt on, go one step further. Have a sign. You know, you can have a small uh uh collapsible sign that you can have there that you can showcase again what is it that you do without you having to say a word. That's good branding.
SPEAKER_01So the the powerful brands draw people to you as opposed to you having to to go out and and and push the brand upon someone.
SPEAKER_00I'll give you a good example, and and and this is almost for anyone out there early days where you know we're all lead flow is cash flow and cash flow is king. But if that lead flow is what holds you back, imagine going to open homes and having your shirt on in respect of what your business name is, and let's call it something, let's call it um you know just um could be anything, but something lending for argument's sake. And you've got that shirt on, this is my farming area, so this is where I live. And I'm gonna go through those open homes because at this stage I don't really have context, nor do I have the lead flow. I go to that open home, the real estate agent is there, sees me, can read and say, hey, mate, I'll just come through these properties because if my client decides to buy this property, I always like to know a lot about the properties in my area. Um, and I help a lot of clients in this area. Why do I talk that way? Because the real estate has got a farming area. Most real estate agents is gonna look at trying to do business in one particular area why because between open homes, I don't want to drive 80 kilometers that way to do one open home to another one. So it's structurally sound on why they do what they do. So now I've gone through and they know now I'm a broker, so they may see me at the next one that they have. Now, first one it was hello. Next one is hey Ruan. And straight away tomorrow, if I was to phone them because the contractor has come and I say, Hey Jack, it's Rouanya from so-and-so lending, you can appreciate how you've now it's not just a name anymore, your brand now has a name because of you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So how do brokers then balance you spoke about um the out there facing with clients and and and building that brand, but balance that with actually growing their business um and and and and and not stepping away from that?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, every broker would love to work more on their business. I think that's just a Lady Amazé. Um, but almost there's a lot of brokers that will say in three years' time, I wouldn't I don't want to write, I would like to manage. And I've always said um, you know, depending on what your business can do, sometimes you've got to write to manage. So it's almost a passage passageway, so to speak. I think early on, you just have no choice but to take more things on. And I think um, you know, this is where social media is a great supporter of your brand. Because imagine me being at an open home and doing a quick video and say, I'm at this open home, four bedroom, you know, from a client's point of view, price point this because it's a private treaty, you know, from a client's point of view at 20%, you're gonna look at repayments around this. That's a great post. And it's relevant. And so you almost have to look at how do you tree house your brand to connect with your different ways of communication. And then from a business point of view, you've got to figure out what type of money you are willing to spend, whether it's through meta-ads, whether it's, you know, um with the real estate. You've got to understand what you're gonna spend, which means you need to understand the flow of your business funding. Uh, if you don't have it, the chances are you're gonna run out of it. So, and when we help people with finances, shouldn't we be all over our own finances?
SPEAKER_01So You touched on social media there. Is is there a fine line in social media from putting your brand out there to stepping into the cringeworthy factor of um, you know, I'm just there for the sake of uh of of pushing myself?
SPEAKER_00I think when you start, you have no choice but to push yourself. I think it would be for anyone that starts, we all know it's um it's a tougher gek. So if you're not gonna push yourself, who is gonna push you? So I think um I maybe look at it a bit different. I'm quite impressed with someone that does. I think they just show me they're showing up, they're willing to get their hands dirty, they're willing to to put themselves out there. I mean, that for me is I I don't know, I think that's quite admirable.
SPEAKER_01So don't be afraid to um, you know, to to jump into that world and and and do it regular, but make sure you've got a story to tell.
SPEAKER_00Well what's the alternative? So for me, if I don't have that lead flow, I've got to create that lead flow. And that lead flow for me is first and foremost is my sign out site, uh, whether it's my website, uh, you know, that again, direct or first impressions if someone comes onto it. Um, is it easy to navigate? Is it easy to work? Um, social media, um, you know, do I have someone there that can give me some social proof? Is there Someone that I've just helped. I mean, imagine being at a house, putting a sign up, salt, and we've done the finance and have a quick video with someone and go, you know, how was the process? Did you enjoy that? I loved the process. You were really, really good. I thank you guys for that. Post it. It's it's telling a story. And at the end of the day, people relate and resonate to stories more than facts and figures. It's just human behavior. So let's make it personal. And today it's personal, tomorrow it's purpose. Um, but I think one you've got to start somewhere and you've got to do. And then from that point of view, it's if I have that fact find of that client, um, I've got that opportunity. Imagine having that contract and finding the real estate agent and having that conversation with the real estate agent about, you know, what is the is there something about the property we should know? I mean, if this property has been valued before and valuation didn't stack up, and I'm taking it somewhere where it's the same valuer, well, I'm gonna have a problem. So why am I not asking the questions? So it's almost like saying everything that comes in front of you, you have to have conversations. You've got to make sure that if there is gonna be a pit stop in front of you, if there is a pitfall, have you alleviated it? Have you mitigated it? So I think, and that's brand too, because think of you guys as Bluestone, if I may say this. You've got credit managers that deal with brokers every day. That's brand. I mean, your credit managers is gonna talk about certain brokers and say part I love most about them is they have really taken the client circumstances into account. They've given good medic uh mitigation, they've got gave good reasoning, they clearly understand the client circumstances, they understand the proposition. That's brand.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And you know, we pride ourselves, and you use the example of uh credit managers, underwriters, um, we pride ourselves on being curious, um, and it's part of our brand values to be curious. And in our space, where we're not always dealing with the vanilla, we're dealing with, you know, people that have got um circumstances that may uh have resulted through a financial hiccup, or their um financial structure isn't just you know black and white that the banks look after. Asking the right questions and delving and having your brand stand for that is so important to us.
SPEAKER_00And that's that that's again, I think this is why I like brand so much. I think we sometimes misconstrued brand as something we can see on a piece of paper when brand is like a delta stream. It's just where the river comes through. It's um, you know, all different things make a good brand. You asked me earlier, um, you know, with good businesses, you know, what what what is with their brand? It's the fact that everything has been measured, everything has been adjusted, and everything is constantly getting challenged. That's what makes good brand. I mean, the way I talk to people. What is my brand through that? So brand is almost like six different things put into one box. And, you know, at the end of the day, you shake it, you open it, and it either looks good or it doesn't look good. As then paying attention almost to what do we need to adjust? You know, because this work and that work, why is this not working? That's a good brand. It's at the end of the day that it comes, it's almost made out of different parts, but together it's stronger than anything else.
SPEAKER_01And we shouldn't be afraid of refreshing a brand if it's not working um the way you need it or want it.
SPEAKER_00One of our companies are just doing it that's based in Melbourne. And I tell you what, just his whole attitude, just he's almost like it's like he's got a new life because of a brand refreshment. And I thought that's cool. You know, the fact that, and again, I think sometimes, like you just said, it it gives new life. Um, and you've got to understand too, is we can grow out of a brand. We can grow past our brand. And if that happens, you've got to pivot. You gotta adjust. You don't always have to change, but sometimes, and again, client feedback, you know. Um, again, as I said, there's certain brands that's gonna stand the test of time because they're selling a product, but ours isn't the product, ours is facilitating uh um a certain connection. And with that, our brand has the capacity to be adjusted purely because there's so many different particles to what makes the real brand.
SPEAKER_01Oh, and we certainly lived have lived that in the last 12 months. So just over 12 months ago, we refreshed our brand. We started with the proposition that maybe we completely change everything, and we spoke to customers, and customers told us now it's it's it's what you stand for and and and how you deliver against that. And so we refreshed it and and and um made it much clearer what our values and how how we were going to deliver and what people could uh expect for us. And it was reinvigorating for the organization to uh to do that.
SPEAKER_00So it's so it's funny now when you just say that because that just encompasses everything. Brand is clarity. It's the message, it's the delivery, and it's the execution. That's a good brand. And so if I was a near broker, I've got to understand my message, I've got to understand how I'm gonna deliver it, and I've got to know how I'm gonna execute it. And so that clarity is what's gonna give you confidence to go, I can go harder, yeah. I feel comfortable to do this. And then from there it's control. How do I protect it?
SPEAKER_01I love that, and I think that's uh a wonderful way to uh wrap up uh these three episodes um on brand. Roan, it's always a pleasure. Thank you for sharing uh your knowledge, expertise, and uh um for always being willing to uh um uh to be uh a great mate of of Bluestone. I appreciate you guys. Um and thank you for tuning in. Um please um subscribe, join the Bluestone community to get uh more updates and insights, and we'll see you on the next episode. That's a wrap for this episode of It's a Broker Thing, brought to you by Bluestone Home Loans. We love sharing ideas that help you stay ahead because backing brokers, well, it's a Bluestone thing. Hit subscribe and join us next time for more insights and stories that keep you in the know. This podcast is for general education only and isn't financial, legal, or tax advice. Guest views are their own. Bluestone accepts no liability for errors or how you use this information.