It's a Broker Thing
It’s a Broker Thing brings you real broker conversations, the kind that happen when you’re talking shop with someone who understands the pace, the pressure and the unexpected moments that come with the job.
Each episode shares stories, insights and practical ideas from people who’ve genuinely lived broking, with honest chat and a few laughs along the way.
This podcast is for general education only and isn’t financial, legal, or tax advice. The guests’ views are their own. Bluestone accepts no liability for errors or how you use this information.
It's a Broker Thing
5. The Science of Staying Relevant - with guest, Ruan Burger
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
What keeps a broker or brokerage relevant year after year?
Host Tony MacRae and business coach Ruan Burger strip back the noise to discuss why the most successful brokerages aren’t just built on transactions, but on the art of aftercare. Ruan shares why he transitioned from being a top-tier broker to founding Success and Broker, offering a raw look at the habits that separate those who thrive from those who plateau.
Ruan's secret to staying relevant? You'll have to tune in to find out.
Tune into episode four for real talk, practical tips and a fresh perspective.
Welcome to It's a Broker Thing podcast, brought to you by Bluestone Home Loans. Each episode we'll dive into market updates, practical insights, and real stories for brokers who want to stay ahead, build stronger relationships and grow their business. Let's dive in. Welcome back to It's a Broker Thing, brought to you by Bluestone Home Loans. I'm your host, Tony McCrae, and again I'm joined today by founder of Success and Broker and great friend of Bluestone, Ruan Berger.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me, sir.
SPEAKER_02Mate, today we'll be discussing tips on how brokers can stand out and stay relevant in an ever-changing and highly competitive uh market. But before we jump into that, I thought we might just delve a little bit into Success and Broker and and how it came about. Because, you know, I first met you, I think we agreed it's about 16, 17 years ago, and you were one of the top brokers in the country. Um and uh and and now it's a very same industry but very different path.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh again, the journey that took me to where I am today was a little bit more family uh with my son. You know, it was just his birthday. I don't know, I think I mentioned to you, um, he's just turned 16. And um it's funny because you reminisce in these moments, you know, like uh just where you're at in life and how you support how you support your people. Um success in broker for me when I sold out of the last business, um, it was to get more time to support with my son. Um, and very quickly from doing that, I had the opportunity to go around the country, and going around the country got me to meet brokers that knew me quite well. Uh they brought me into their companies and then uh had about five companies and realized uh I may need to get a name now. So applied for a name in October 2021, and uh yeah, Success and Broker was born. And I think as a business model, one of the things I'm most proud about today is that we not that that I've almost grown as well now as a coach, not to be just a coach, but to be now part of a coaching company. So we've got a coach that does budget uh budget planning, we've got a two coaches that can do business planning, we've got a coach that does process governance and compliance, we've got a coach that does performance and sales, and I feel that for me is almost that's something I when I started this journey I wanted to try and achieve. Um and yeah, very happy that that seems to be the trend we're on, and yeah, it makes me quite happy.
SPEAKER_02And and and you're very particular about success and broker and not broker and success. And you've pulled me up a few times on on that front. Why why why the you know key positioning of the wording there?
SPEAKER_00Only because I don't think we signed up to just support the broker. We wanted to support the business. And even if you're a one-man band, you've got to be clear whether you're a brokerage or whether you're a business and what it is that you want to build. So we wanted to talk about success for what success means for people. If I can understand that, then I can support the broker in respect of what their journey may look like. Um, it's easy to say I want to write a hundred mil as a broker, but it's understanding what that looks like in a business, what is the cost implication, um, what is the timelines? Um so it's almost saying you've got to understand what and like everything, it's easy to say I want to write a hundred mil, but if you understand what it takes from you, do you still want to write it? So we say you've got to look at what success is for you, and if we understand that, then we can support and initiate anything. Um, this is the best part about our business model, it's that we can support and initiate anything. Yeah, wow. Wow.
SPEAKER_02And so brokers have lots of choice today, and and and and there seems to be, you know, a a growing number of uh mentors or coaches in the marketplace. What makes success and brokers stand out?
SPEAKER_00Oh and it's maybe one thing it's uh not always fun to talk about yourself per se, purely because it's a nice thing if others can say it about you. But for me it was always the focus point was that I can't ever say that I would be the best coach. I can't ever say that we're gonna be the best coaching company for that matter. But what I could say to brokers is after doing this twice, once regionals, once metro, whatever they think, I've either failed or succeeded in it. And so from that point of view, I can speak from a truth point of view. I I don't have to overthink these things. Um in those moments, I can have real conversations that means the broker will be able to relate and resonate with the story I'm telling and therefore the advice I'm giving. Um, and again, just because I say you've got to do it this way doesn't mean you have to. It means that I'm giving you a different way to compare and compete. Um, we got to find ourselves, we've got to only find what makes me more comfortable. I mean, I signed a broker not too long ago that the first thing he said to me is I'm very apprehensive, I'm quite anxious, you know, I don't like to go and ask for things, and I just want to make sure you're not gonna push me to have to go and ask for things. And I said to him, My job isn't to push you to do anything, my job is to just give you a little bit of uh give you a set of binoculars and let you just see the wood from the trees because if you want to compete here, these are the things that you need to take into account. You can't jump out of a plane without a parachute, you've got to put it on. So if you don't like a parachute, then don't jump out of the plane. So it was just a case of saying to him, as long as you understand what it is that you truly want, we can support you and initiate anything.
SPEAKER_02I jumped out of a plane once. With a parachute as well. With a parachute and um I I was uh it was a uni student and I'd actually spent all my money um to be able to do this and do this course. And it was back in the days when you um were allowed to do it by yourself first time.
SPEAKER_00Oh yes.
SPEAKER_02But um just before we jumped out, they said we we we're jack of people throwing the ripcords away. Um and so if you throw the ripcords away, it's eighty dollars. And I'm there going, I don't have eighty dollars to my name. No one knows I'm doing this because I didn't tell anyone. And so I spent so much time after we um, you know, uh jumped out, pulled the ripcord, make sure I held onto the thing and stuffed it down into the jumpsuit and all this. By the time I um got hold of the toggles, I I'd actually lost sight of the arrow on the ground and landed on the wrong side of the Hume Highway. The guy that came down after me was so annoyed, he didn't talk to me the whole way because we had to walk all the way back with these heavy parachutes. So I agree, don't jump out of a plane without a parachute. But actually pay more attention to where you're supposed to land, but as well.
SPEAKER_00And it's it's funny you just say this. This is something we always say to companies when we work with them, you know, the role we're gonna play. You know, uh our job as your coaching partner and as your external business partner is to look ahead of you, your job is to look in front of you. So we want to be very clear what our jobs is, what we are to be kept accountable for, and how we therefore can measure, you know, the success we can have together. And you just asked me earlier about success and broker. For me, it's about if anyone signs us, it's about the success we want to have together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, no, that's great. Um, so we spoke about brokers having choice and how success and broker stands out. But customers have, you know, a massive um array of choice now. So what have brokers got to do to stand out?
SPEAKER_00I think the reality of it is, and you can you can talk to different brokers, but the reality of it is you got to every time you support someone, you've got to talk about how you supported them. You've got to be um every one person that sits in front of you have a circle of influence. Today you've got to really, really hone into that circle of influence. You've got to understand what is gonna be the things that will make someone's circle of influence ask them rather than them having to talk about it. Because in every one business, you've got prospectors and you've got supporters. Uh, not everyone is gonna go out there and talk about what you've done for them. Some people are quite private, they're quite keen to keep it to themselves, and that doesn't mean they're not coming back to you. It just means they're not telling everyone. So you've got to start asking better questions. Today's broker for me is gonna be about who's asking the best questions. You know, if I was to sit with you and I'm gonna take you on a bit of a journey and I go, um, our business is built through outlines selling our services, not just referring us. I'm already setting a certain tone with you in respect of what may be an expectation in future. Now, I've got to pay attention to your behavior. I've got to pay attention to, you know, if you go, yeah, it makes sense. Well, I already know you're the type of person that will talk about us if I give a if I present good service. So I think today's broker has got to be able to hone in better. You can't just help the transaction anymore. You you can't just just because you've helped them doesn't make them your client. You've got to start. I mean, um, if I was broker today, I'll be very big on selling aftercare. I mean, the transaction is important and it is expected, but there's the thing, it is expected. The thing currently that people don't understand is what aftercare looks like because I just think there's a lot of brokers that don't tell them. And now the broker is gonna call him and ask him how's your loan going? Uh I'm gonna do a rate review, I'm gonna do this. That they expect you to call. I mean, I hear a broker saying to me, you know, people just don't call back that they expect you to call. So we for me for today's broker, you gotta not worry about the transaction, you gotta worry about the tenure. If you want a client to be with you for the next two years, sell two years. Tell them the story, show them the journey. There's a reason people went to Uber from taxis. Because the cap tells them it's gonna be five minutes, or or tell them it's soon. What does soon mean? The Uber driver shows them this is how long it's gonna take, I can see it. So people buy into now what they can understand, we've got to make them understand it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've heard you talk before about the you know, be really clear, set expectations, and and and I'm I agree on the transaction piece. Um I'm I'm a um a true believer that the transaction will at a point in time, whether it be just through automation, whether it be through AI, will will start to shrink and it'll become less relevant. And so what and the way you deliver for the customer before and after that transaction will become more and more important in the future.
SPEAKER_00Agreed. And if you think of Aftercare, because people say to me, Yeah, but you can get systems, that does it. I don't disagree with that. But why wouldn't you pick up the phone? Why wouldn't you try and understand where are they today, where have they been yesterday? Um, what is the protocol? You know, uh is someone buying this house because it's an asset to them or are they buying it because it's a vehicle to them? Have you ask? If you haven't asked, what service proposition are you putting in front of them? So I think we need to make sure people understand what it is that they want, and who are better to guide them than a broker.
SPEAKER_02And and I think having those communities as well to be able to point customers in the right direction beyond again just the pure home loan that brings that um longevity of uh of relationship. And you know, I remember when I bought um in Sydney for the first time, I bought a hundred-year-old house um and um needed to, as you will, with a hundred-year-old house, find a plumber and electrician really damn quick. And it was near to the area, and and thankfully I had had some support, and my business stuck with the people that that provided that support for me.
SPEAKER_00And I love what you just said in respect of that community, and um I think it's that's a big part that again brokers just need to become stronger at articulating. Who is your service providers? Who is those people that forms part of your service proposition? Have you does every client that deal with you or every prospect that deal with you, do they know who it is? Because that's that's almost making you more that's that's empowering your offer for all intents and purpose. That's enabling your client quicker turnarounds. I mean, if I was to say to you, um you know, you gotta do this, but rather than you're worrying about it, I can assist you with that. I mean, straight away, that's just conveniently I'm gonna go, oh, thank you. I appreciate that. So I think we we as a broker, we're so good at supporting the client and doing work for the client. We're not always so good at making them understand what the work is we've done. What is the cost to the work we're doing? I mean, I one of our companies, they very clear telling a client it's about$1,300. That's what it costs us to support you with writing this loan. I think it's brilliant. I say every broker should do that. Why? Because there is a cost of doing it. I mean the staff that we have in our businesses isn't free. Your hours shouldn't be free. You know, um I I'm you know, one of my pet hates is where someone go, my offer, my my service is free. Well, it shouldn't be. It doesn't make sense to me why it should be. I mean, no one else's services is free, why should ours be free? So the reality of it is yes, we're gonna get paid for the service proposition, but that doesn't make it free. Let there be a value to the service that you give, let there be a reason why the service you give is at a certain standard and an expectation is therefore measured. You know, if I'm doing the right things by you, why can't I ask you to refer me or sell my services to someone else?
SPEAKER_02And I think that's key is is don't be afraid to ask for the referral. You know, don't be afraid to ask the question, did I do everything I said I was going to do? And if I did, um please refer someone on.
SPEAKER_00And and I get that not everyone, for everyone, that comes natural. That I respect. But there's certain things you can do to help you almost make it easier or make it better if you like. I mean, if I if I wasn't one that I'm comfortable to ask, if I was to get a Google review from a client, I mean they just told me straight away, just there, they've made sure that I understand, they'll tell the world about what I do and why I do it. Um I've had a uh broker phone me the other day and said to me, Listen, I do gifts, but I don't know if they work. And I said, Well, I can tell you now the gifts work. What I just need to figure out is how do you do it. So, and it's that's why I say so sometimes the way we assess things, we may think it doesn't work, but the reality is depends on how it works, so not respectful of how you assess it. So if you think a little bit like um they send it, so in this case they were sending it to the client's home address. And I said, Well, if they get it at their home, if they like it, how many people have seen it? And they said, Well, they've seen it, it was for them. So send it to their workplace. Oh, yeah, yeah, but what if they don't want to open it there? They don't have to. But if they did. So there's certain things where you sound don't assume anything, don't think you know what they're gonna do, use the model that allows that to happen. If it doesn't happen, no harm, no foul. You still gave them a gift. And now it's a point of when do you give the gift? Do you give it at settlement? Do you give it a formal approval? In my opinion, give it at approval. Why it's the happiest time. At settlement, what are you doing? You're saying thank you. So they get it at work, they open it. Person goes, Who's that from? Oh, it's from my broker. He's just saying thank you for doing finance through them. That's the story, that's the message.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Send it at approval, it's from my broker, I just got my loan approved through them. Two very different stories, same principle. So you just gotta figure out what story do you want to be told and what story are you telling.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it it uh I love that idea of of of to the office as the home and and and and pre-approval. You send it to the home at uh at settlement, you know, I I'd know about you, but uh there's so much rubbish in the in the place, the last thing you want to see is uh as much as you appreciate it, but it's just another piece of uh stuff you need to find a home for. Yeah. But in the office, and and if if if co-workers see that, you know, the obvious next question is, well, that's wonderful. Who is that?
SPEAKER_00My broker give me a gift. It's the first thing someone says. And I think the reality of it is you've got to be very conscious about the gifts you choose. You know, everything tells a story, so let yours tell a story too. If you're gonna spend the money, make it count. So it's for me, it's uh, you know, someone said to me the other day, oh you know, I'm just gonna send flowers. I said, Okay, but um how do you feel when you just get flowers? Does it make you really how does it make you feel? And they said, Oh, I don't know, I haven't had flowers for a while. I said, Well, just think about what you send to them and think about the time it takes. I mean, I've got one client ask me the other day um about a gift for if it goes to a workplace. I said, Well, you can do uh a table clock, you get such cool ones now, and I guarantee if you did it, they'll keep it. It will stay in the office. It's one of those funny things. So there's so many different things you can think about. Um I did have one broker say to me, everyone works from home now, so that doesn't work. And I'm like, uh, I don't think so. I still think a lot of people work in the offices, but if that is the case, ask the question. So don't say, Where can I send you the gift? Ask them, where are you? Most of the time, I'm at work. Good. Tick. I already know where I'm gonna send that gift.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So markets are evolving, um, technology, AI. How how do brokers evolve what they do, their brand, but retain the essence of who they are?
SPEAKER_00I think for me, there's two parts to it. It depends, uh it depends in respect of your tenure as a broker. If you look at a broker that have been doing it for the last 20 years, I think it's quite self-fulfilling. Um, it's quite a self-fulfilled prophecy in the sense of you've got that many clients, they don't just change, stop dealing with you. A lot of those clients, you are part of their legacy, you're part of their outcomes, you're part of their experiences. So I think for bigger businesses, um, it's always now gonna be easier. And if I say, or or let's not use the word easy, it's gonna be better. Uh, just purely they've done their time. And people don't just move away for the sake of moving away. Uh, a lot of brokers that's been in it a long time have got good experience. They they are capable, they're competent, their capacity is measured. They know what they're willing to do, they know what they're not willing to do. Um, but if you think about the brokers coming through, you know, this year, next year, the last two years for that matter, I think for them, they gotta be more on point. I don't think you can be like it was back in the day. I think you have to be more on point. You've got to be very clear about the proposition to the client, and you've got to be very clear about the service proposition long term that you're gonna provide. And again, I'll say it proposition today, service proposition long term. You've got to be very clear on those things. And if you're clear on those things, you'll be surprised what it does to your confidence.
SPEAKER_02Is it harder starting out as a broker today than than what it was 15, 20 years ago?
SPEAKER_00I would like to think so. Uh 15 years ago we sold against banks. I don't think that was the hard thing uh because we had choice, we had convenience. Um and as we know, clients are influenced by convenience. So that was in our favor. Today it's broker versus broker. Um and if you're not calling them, another broker is calling them. So almost to a certain extent, you've got to have some type of system of making sure that one, you talk to your clients and secondly you keep engaging with your clients. I do think if if you ask me one thing today, is that we are currently lit a lot as a broker where we need to take the reins back and get back into what makes client experiences better, which is education. How do I educate you in such a way that you feel compelled to want to use my services? You know, at the end of the day, it's not just about what I'm gonna do for you today, but it's the top of things I'm gonna uh uh share with you that should be important to you. It's the way that I'm gonna lead you. Um, I mean, I used to say, and I say it now to brokers too, don't go into it to try and win the business. Go into it to try and support the client. So whether that means they sign your services or not, say certain things that they know you're not fighting for their business. You are presenting to them what you have at offer. Um imagine me sitting today with you and go, Tony, this is what we're gonna do. I'm gonna show you what you can and can't do. Um after this, I'm gonna show you what lenders may be best situated with that things in mind and showing you what could be what could be the next steps. If you find value in it, then you can make a decision whether you want to use my services. No harm, no foul if I'm not the right fit for you. But again, we built last long lasting relationships and we want to make sure that's the top of the top of service you're after.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You you you you bring up a good point there that you know 15, 20 years ago, the competition. Was the banks and brokers were were the challenger brand. Now brokers are 77 knocking on the door of 80% uh market share. They are the main game in town. Is there a risk of um as an industry we as becoming the main game make the mistakes that banks did and and and and slip from challenger to arrogance and incumbent? And how do we avoid it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I don't think there's a risk. I think if you think most of us, we SMEs, we we business owners. And even if I'm a business owner and people that work for me, it's small enough, I'm nimble enough, I'm direct enough to influence certain behaviors. Um we're not corporatized. So the reality is we're still people and we're gonna deal with people. So I think if anything, we have a real reason for why people still want to talk to us. Um every person that talked to me doesn't have a number, they have a name, and I treat them accordingly. Um and I think for that reason we we're in quite good stead. However, we've got to understand that people's expectations change. What people see as value today becomes an expectation tomorrow. So for that reason, I'm gonna have to be open-minded in how I stay ahead of the wave so that at the end of the day it is still my choice and I'm not forced to make a choice.
SPEAKER_02And and and I think we've got to continue to keep evolving and lifting our standards because I think that's where um you know some of the um incumbents of the past um you know had had that um we're we're happy to just be at a certain level, but that's not good enough anymore. You you you continue to need to um grow and evolve. And you know, we talk about in our business, you know, the the biggest enemy we have is plateauing. Oh um and you coach, you talk, spend a lot of time with brokers. What do you see? What are the habits that differentiate those that thrive as opposed to those that plateau and then ultimately go backwards?
SPEAKER_00Again, it's and it's not it's not that I think someone plateaus on purpose. I think the reality of it is it's time. There's so much that comes into play, circumstantial, etc. Um what I think is the thing that I look at when I'm looking at companies we sign to coach is first and foremost, are they good humans? You know, because if they're good human, they do things for the right reason. You know, and I'm not saying anyone is perfect, but 80-20 rule. If 80% of the time you're doing things for the right reason, that's a good start. Um, and then I'm looking at them and I try and assess them on this and go, how open are you to adjust and to pivot? Because I'm I want you to adjust and pivot on process, but I wanted you to stay strong on your structure. So structure saves you, process makes you. So I'm saying, you know, at the end of the day, your process, I I'm not a fan of the word process per se, I'm a fan of the word progress. Um, I want to say to you that the day you don't ask a client for feedback is the day that the feedback will forego you. Um so if I ask clients for feedback, I'm not trying to figure out if I'm ever than having the perfect process. I'm trying to figure out what am I doing that I don't have to do. Because for the same token, if I had 10 clients and I was doing one thing in our phone, all 10 clients say, Hey, I know we've done that for you. Did that make it any better? Did that brace to value? Oh, not really. What was the thing that's saying, I love that? So if eight out of ten say to me, didn't really make a difference to me, then is it worth doing? For the two people. And yeah, if I'm having a hundred clients, now we're talking about eighty people. So time at the end of today is a commodity, and for that reason we do have to measure it. And if we don't measure it, how the hell are we managing it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So what what what would be building a brokerage from scratch today? A couple of habits that uh you would do to not build your business for today, but build your business for the next three to five years.
SPEAKER_00So starters, the diary. You too many people go to me, I do it here, I do it there. Well, the problem just is then you're building it for today, you're not building it for tomorrow. You've got to get structurally sound in why you're doing something. I want you to show up today knowing why you're showing up. Um, it's almost like practicing for something and then match day. Uh, they do different things. Being fit and being match fit isn't the same thing. Anyone that's in sport can tell you that. So we've got to make sure we match fit. So, from that point of view, is what days are you gonna show up that you're gonna do certain things? Who is the BDMs that you're already talking to and say, listen, I'm sitting with people, there's every chance I'm gonna have to give you a call today to run through this. How are you gonna be free? You need to be almost proactive. And so what I find is today's broker needs to be proactively proactive. And as you build your brand, as you build your proposition, you can become reactively proactive. And that's where it becomes a good business model. That's where Basecamp is well set, well established, and from there you can choose what mountain you climb.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And and I've heard you talk before about fighting days and and and and then recovery or or or rest. And so that diary is all about building out that uh all of those activities so it it does, you know, lock in but become second nature.
SPEAKER_00And just so you're not always uh like I mean, we've got to sometimes put ourselves, just flip it. Um if you're available every day, you leave me to figure out something, you know, like you I have to ask the question, if you're available every day, how busy are you? So if you have a fighting day and I say, I've got these slots, if I have to move something, I'll try my best to move it for you. Well, that's a whole different conversation. Now I'm starting to think, oh geez. And FOMO is real. People don't want to lose out. So if this is important to you, I mean, I I uh brokers at the end of the day go to me, you know, someone phones to me and say, I'm just finding I'm really having difficulty, I'm so up, and then I'm down, and I go, well, it's because of a peak and a trough and not an ep in a flow. So I first thing I go when I go into their business and I do an assessment, I go, so you book these meetings, how many of these were refinances? Are these two? Whether that urgent? Oh, not really. So why don't you book them next week? Why don't you try and have more base in this week so that it becomes something where I can almost predict my play, I can always predict my output. Uh so too many times we've made it too unpredictable. And this is where it all starts for me with the diary. Uh and as a business, it is that important. Why? Because if you want to go to the Olympic Games as a swimmer, what happens very early on for you? You get up at 4 a.m. in the morning, you go swimming. It's not a choice. That's a chore. Your diary at the start is a chore, so it later on can give you and allow you choices.
SPEAKER_02And it's it's it's so it's about being in control and proactive as opposed to just reacting to what's presented in front of you.
SPEAKER_00And in future you can, because if you've built a really good database, if you've built a really good business, you can be pro reactively proactive. That's now that's the pleasure of the business you've built. But at the early days, you can't. You have to make sure that you do certain things. I mean, imagine having a BDM slot on a Thursday morning at 10 and going, I'm gonna phone three BDMs, three BDMs every Thursday at 10 a.m. and I'm gonna ask them, tell me what you're currently doing, what's hot, what's not. Now imagine when I wasn't busy enough, I've just phoned the Bluestone BDM, which by the way, doesn't know me. And I'm phoning you in three weeks again. By the way, now you do know me, and in two weeks I'm phoning you with a scenario. How is this already working for relationships?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I think it's some some some really good tools and um tips there. And uh as always, um it's it's a pleasure having you on. I thank you again for uh sharing your insights, but unfortunately, again, we've uh run out of a little bit of time, but uh thanks for joining us again.
SPEAKER_00It's better than Minka's Minute, brother.
SPEAKER_02You get you've got to go home and uh and uh and and face up to that. I like Minka's Minute. But uh thank you for tuning in and um please subscribe, um, join the Bluestone community to get uh more updates and uh insights, and we'll see you on the next episode. That's a wrap for this episode of It's a Broker Thing, brought to you by Bluestone Home Loans. We love sharing ideas that help you stay ahead because battling brokers, well, it's a Bluestone thing. Hit subscribe and join us next time for more insights and stories that keep you in the know. This podcast is for general education only and isn't financial, legal, or tax advice. Guest views are their own. Bluestone accepts no liability for errors or how you use this information.